From True Crime Podcast to Netflix Hit: The Storytelling Journey of Courteney Stuart

[00:00:00] Felicia Shelton: Thank you everyone. This is Felicia at In My Travels. Thank you once again for joining us here for another episode. Today we have a very special guest. I know I say that with each and every one of my guests, but it’s true. This person, I met in my travels and she has agreed to come onto the podcast to talk about her recent trip to Germany.

[00:00:22] We are going to hear about why she had to go to Germany. She’s working on some pretty amazing things. She has her own podcasts. So I’m the baby podcaster. This person is a lot more professional, has been doing this for quite some time. And so I’m going to introduce you to Courtney Stewart, but more importantly, Courtney is going to introduce herself to all of you.

[00:00:46] Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:48] Courteney Stuart: Thank you, Felicia. Thanks for having me on. This is fun. I love it. Feeling what it’s like to be on the other side of the interview, right? That’s right. I think it’s important for journalists to remember what that feels like.

[00:00:59] Felicia Shelton: Exactly.

[00:01:00] Courteney Stuart: So, yeah. So you you wanted to hear about my recent travels,

[00:01:04] Felicia Shelton: To Germany?

[00:01:04] That’s right. And then I just learned, you know, here in the studio that you have more travel stories than I initially knew about. So, yeah, but let’s start with Germany.

[00:01:14] Courteney Stuart: Okay. My most recent trip, it actually ended up to be a trip to Germany and Italy but that’s only because I, Insisted on extending it by a few days.

[00:01:22] The, the Germany piece was actually tied to my podcast, Small Town Big Crime, which was a project that I worked on and investigated with a fellow journalist named Rachel Ryan. And it took us three and a half years. To put everything together, but it was fairly extreme. We collected DNA. We ended up eliminating some alternate suspects.

[00:01:42] We ended up revealing that a man who’d been claiming that he’d been wrongfully convicted for decades really had been lying and had been manipulating information and things like that. And so, so through the course of our reporting, we connected with some documentary filmmakers who were based in Germany.

[00:02:02] And Jens Soering is at the center of this. He’s a UVA student, people may have heard of.

[00:02:07] Felicia Shelton: That’s right. Give us a little background about the the podcast. What’s the name of your podcast?

[00:02:12] Courteney Stuart: It’s Small Town, Big Crime: Jens Soering and the Haysom Murders. So that’s, it’s one season. It’s like serial. And so that ended up to be 18 episodes that took us close to four years to put together.

[00:02:23] And it covers the 1985 murders of Derek and Nancy Haysom down in Bedford County, Virginia. Those were the parents of Elizabeth Haysom. Both Jens Soering and Elizabeth Haysom were UVA students. They were both Echols Scholars, highly you know, highly successful students that, you know, came in among the smartest at the school and they had this relationship.

[00:02:45] And and then her parents were murdered in March. They ended up going on the run and it would be another year before they were captured in London. And then for decades after, Jens claimed he was convicted at trial, but he claimed that he had given a false confession. And it’s been a, it was a fascinating project.

[00:03:02] Felicia Shelton: Yeah. And Jens comes from Germany, so.

[00:03:05] Courteney Stuart: Yes. Yeah. So there was this connection. These German filmmakers were making a project for Netflix. They ended up interviewing Rachel and I, and over the course of a couple of years while we were doing our podcast. So we ended up being part of their project. And that was a series called Till Murder Do Us Part: Soaring Versus Haysom.

[00:03:23] And that came out November 1st on Netflix. It started streaming.

[00:03:27] Felicia Shelton: That’s right. And it’s still there. I was watching it last night.

[00:03:30] Courteney Stuart: Yes.

[00:03:31] Felicia Shelton: So good.

[00:03:32] Courteney Stuart: It’s really well done. I mean, I, we were just subjects. We were kind of, you know, You know, they were making that project. They interviewed us, but it ended up doing very well.

[00:03:41] I thought they did a great job telling a complicated story, and it ended up being number one, you know, in that week in 15 countries, and it performed very well. And I think that is a credit to them. The directors and the whole team’s ability to make it something people could understand.

[00:03:57] Felicia Shelton: Yeah, it’s, it’s an incredible story.

[00:04:00] I had no idea. I’d never heard about this murder. And, you know, it took place here in Virginia where, you know, we, we live and work. And so for me, just, you know, watching it Wow, it just, so many questions popped up in my head and, you know, of course, as a viewer, you’re thinking, see, that’s, that’s the first mistake, you know, this person, or she looks a little shifty or etc, etc.

[00:04:22] But of course, that’s easy for the viewer to say. And this murder rocked the entire, You know, county and of course, the people who knew this couple just a very interesting story. So if you have Netflix, please, I highly, highly recommend watching it. It is fascinating. Yeah, really,

[00:04:40] Courteney Stuart: Well, thanks. I mean, I think they did a great job. And then yeah, I think it’s also interesting the podcast, you know, you can watch both and you’ll probably get, they didn’t go into everything we did in our podcast in the series. So I always recommend to people to do both because I, they got. Some things that we didn’t get in our podcasts, and I don’t want to give everything away, but they had some, some experts and they just did some cool stuff.

[00:05:02] And then we did some stuff that they didn’t end up mentioning that I think was pretty important. So together, I think Both projects arrive essentially at the same conclusion.

[00:05:13] Felicia Shelton: Yeah, it’s fascinating. So, so you, you went to Germany to promote.

[00:05:15] Courteney Stuart: We went for it. We were invited. The production company was a company called Fruit Market and based in well, they’re not based in Berlin, but there was a premier event in Berlin. And then the filmmakers who we got to know over a couple of years of filming and spending enormous amounts of time talking to them, explaining what, you know, where we were in our investigation, they would film certain things as they were unfolding. And we really liked them and respected them and had enjoyed this professional relationship.

[00:05:45] So we went and met them in Munich, we are actually are hoping to work on another project with them. And so we did some filming for this other project that’s underway. And we just Got to socialize and go to dinner and hang out with them in person all together, you know, in a relaxed environment for the first time in Munich.

[00:06:03] We got to stay in an amazing hotel and go to holiday markets. It was, it was amazing. And then we went up to Berlin for the, for the party.

[00:06:10] Felicia Shelton: That’s amazing. So yeah, that’s, that’s right. You were in, I think I saw you a little bit before you went and you told me you’re going, you were off to Germany and I was like, Oh my, you know, so excited for you.

[00:06:21] And, and so that experience now that you’ve, that not, you did not promote, you were working with these people. So how would that affect you going forward? Or does that affect your your ideas or your projects, your future projects? Do you see yourself taking your podcast international or do you see yourself collaborating with other people internationally?

[00:06:44] Courteney Stuart: I certainly could. I mean, I think the, the projects that Rachel and I have conceived of. For the most part right now have some sort of central, central Virginia tie because that’s where I’ve spent my career. That’s, I mean, there’s a lot of really crazy stories right here. People may have noticed. And so, so while I’m open to, I’m certainly open to doing stories that aren’t in central Virginia right now, I feel like there’s a number of these cases that I’ve covered over the years in the true crime area, which is not my only interest, but it is a significant interest that.

[00:07:18] Yeah. I would love to see if we could get get them to a larger platform. And then the experience of being part of the documentary was great, except we didn’t have any creative control. We weren’t paid. You know, that was not something because you don’t, I don’t pay, you know, as a journalist, you don’t pay your sources to be in stories.

[00:07:35] We were a source. But a lot of our, you know, it’s like all of our work. So I would like to have more creative control and some ownership over a project like that, that reaches a larger audience, because as a journalist, I would love to be able to make enough money to keep being a journalist.

[00:07:50] Felicia Shelton: Yes, yes, we know about that, so I’m, I’m fascinated with Germany because of the, the subject, the person who committed this crime. So you go there, you’re, you’re working with this team and then you come back here where there are certain things that happened in that collaboration that you see maybe happening or.

[00:08:14] Just bringing that experience back here to affect and how would that affect your your stories or does that affect your stories?

[00:08:23] Courteney Stuart: Well, I think I think going over there and having the chance to spend time With with them in this extended way, but you know sort of further we supported the idea that we wanted to work again with them.

[00:08:36] You know, we had this good synergy with, with these directors and also then we got to meet some of the some of the camera crew that had done work on the Netflix series. And we just thought, you know, we just really loved the creative energy that we all had together. So I do think that that trip and, and having the chance to be over there, I mean, I don’t know that that, and that was only possible because we were there for an extended period of time.

[00:08:58] I mean, it’s You know, for several days and got to do a bunch of things. I don’t know, and, and I think that, and they would like to come back, they would like to do more work in this country. So I think that that, they already have a couple of projects that may have some tie in the U. S. And so doing more is something they’re interested in doing.

[00:09:17] So that would be cool, but I don’t know that that involves us going, going abroad to do stories.

[00:09:22] Felicia Shelton: Okay. Can you tell me this? When I got back to the, to the States, I noticed that everyone. What’s going crazy for true crime? There’s so many podcasts about true crime. What is the fascination? I mean, did you notice that there was also a fascination, maybe in particular for this story because it does involve a German national, but what is going on?

[00:09:46] Courteney Stuart: I mean, I think that, I think that’s a global thing. You saw that this, this was number one in like 15 countries, so it’s not only Germany. It did, it was doing really well in the U. S. You know, I think, I think true crime. is, you know, people are obsessed in every country. It’s sort of psychology. It’s like good versus evil.

[00:10:07] It’s a mystery. It’s a puzzle. It requires you to try to figure out like a whodunit. So there’s a little there’s something that’s engaging about it in terms of there’s the feeling I think for people, there’s, you know, arm, you call them armchair sleuths. I mean, it’s what I would be if I wasn’t a journalist, you know, I can call myself a journalist, but really, you know, there’s armies of people who work on these cases.

[00:10:29] And, and then there’s the whole, you know, DNA banks and and sort of, you know, Cold case is being solved by regular people who are consumed with these stories. So I think that’s part of the appeal. I don’t know.

[00:10:42] Felicia Shelton: That’s true. I mean, I also remember coming back to this country and just being myself being obsessed with sort of mysteries and, and folklore and things like this.

[00:10:54] There’s a, you know, there’s a podcast that I listened to about, you know, when I’m driving to and from Richmond, you know, for work. And I said, you know, I’ll just put this on and I don’t know. It’s just, it just puts me in this headspace like, Ooh, okay. And you know, you have to listen intently. You have to, I don’t know.

[00:11:09] Where were you living? You were living in before I got back this time, I was living, I had moved to China. And then before that it was South Korea. And then before that, France. And then before that, Canada. Sweden. So you’ve done a

[00:11:24] Courteney Stuart: lot. And do you see, oh, sorry. Do you see in the, sort of the folklore, I mean, folklore is often very dark, like true crime, right?

[00:11:32] There’s kind of a thread. I was like, as a kid, I was obsessed with the Brothers Grimm, like completely obsessed. And I loved it. I hated it, but I loved it. And I think there’s a through line to, you True crime. And that’s true.

[00:11:47] Felicia Shelton: Yeah, yeah. You’re right. You’re right. I think for me listening to podcasts like Lore really fascinated me because sometimes they spoke about things.

[00:11:56] I think the history behind all of these, you know, weird disappearances or I don’t know, maybe supernatural things that happen and how that . Travels to, to this present day and time and all of the stories that we tell ourselves that’s the fascination for me.

[00:12:13] I have friends who relax. When they get home from work by listening to true crime and there’s some, some really gory things, but they said, well, this is how I relax. What do you think is the fascination with that? Like people relaxing to hearing these stories?

[00:12:31] Courteney Stuart: I mean, it has to, it has to be. In some way, it’s like an anxiety release, you know? I mean, I don’t know. I’m funny because I, I do like watching series, but I really I like doing the actual investigating. Like, I, I like to engage in the story. I don’t, I don’t typically watch a lot of things where it’s like a true crime story and they’re just telling it from start to finish.

[00:12:52] Like, I’m just kind of like, if there’s no mystery, I, I’m, I find it less interesting. I like the ones where it’s like yeah, there’s something that needs to be solved or some question that needs to be answered. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know. But I agree. I’ve got friends who, I mean, who love to relax to a good true crime podcast and you know, some of the top podcasts like Crime Junkie and it’s just, I mean, it’s like, there’s a huge audience.

[00:13:18] Felicia Shelton: That’s right.  And you’re part of that audience. Tell us about your. Podcast. It’s small town. Big crime.

[00:13:25] Courteney Stuart: Yes. Well, I mean that be, that was the, that is, it was the one season that’s of the Y Suring investigation that then sort of got, we followed for the Netflix series and we, we’ve thought about doing a second season, but that…

[00:13:38] Felicia Shelton: That’s gonna be my next question.

[00:13:40] Courteney Stuart: I think we’re moving in the direction of a docuseries project instead of another podcast. Okay. For the reason that it seems to be financially, there’s just an easier path. It’s not an easier path. There is a path to making money. And I haven’t quite figured out the podcast without a huge sponsorship or something.

Felicia Shelton: Monetization.

Courteney Stuart: The monetization of it has eluded me so far. 

[00:14:05] Felicia Shelton: I think you, you, I mean, you’re incredible. And then okay. So that’s the Germany part. And so. Ladies and gentlemen, when we first, you know, sat down and, you know, I’m talking to Courtney and I, I then learned that Courtney’s been in Iceland and Ghana and tell us about these travels and what brought you to Iceland and Ghana.

[00:14:26] There’s some really interesting things behind this.

[00:14:28] Courteney Stuart: So I, let’s see, I, I’m pretty sure that Iceland, It was my first trip and I had, I had been saying for years that I couldn’t wait to start traveling when my kids were old enough. I had been divorced and had primary custody of two boys and so I took them on trips, but we went to like Disney World or we went, You know, we went on a family beach week with my parents and we did things like that, and I just wanted to get abroad and I didn’t have the budget to be taking them on some of the kinds of trips I wanted to do.

[00:14:57] So when they got old enough and I was able to start doing some of those things, it was thrilling. And so one year that year, the first trip I did with a friend to Iceland, we just went to Reykjavik, but we didn’t have a huge budget, but it was actually good. Sort of affordable. We couldn’t do everything we wanted, but it was just amazing to leave the country and just see something totally different.

[00:15:17] And then the following year I believe it was the following year 20, I believe 2018. Or maybe 2017 was August 12th in Charlottesville, 2018 the next year I was sent by my television station to be the media representative on this with the delegation from the city of Charlottesville to Winnebago, Ghana, which is a sister city.

[00:15:37] And it was a huge delegation. And this was a very special trip following, you know, this following the COVID 19 pandemic. chaos and trauma of the summer of hate. This was a trip to, for, it ended up to be like close to 60 people to, to experience, to, to reconnect with their roots, to see the origins of the transatlantic slave trade, to do this very historic thing and to to have like discussions and, and sort of a really focused thinking about what had happened here in Charlottesville, what their life experiences, ancestors, all of that. And it was powerful. So yeah, I was on that trip.

[00:16:17] Felicia Shelton: Is that something that we the listeners and viewers can watch. Is that, did that turn into a documentary or?

[00:16:23] Courteney Stuart: You know, I did a 30-minute special on CBS called Charlottesville to Ghana. Which I can’t really say was a it’s not like a documentary.

[00:16:31] It was, it was the series of little stories that I’d put together while running around with the delegation. It was an amazing experience for me. I mean, it was the it was my first time first and only time in Africa. It was an experience of, you know, getting to know people from our community in this very different environment.

[00:16:49] It was, yeah, it was, it was an intense, amazing experience that I enjoyed. I’m so grateful I had.

[00:16:58] Felicia Shelton: I wish I would have been there. I mean, we have a mutual friend Clarence Green.

[00:17:02] Courteney Stuart: He was on the trip with me. And so was Niya Bates, who who worked at Monticello. And also, yeah, there were a bunch of people who I’m still in touch with today.

[00:17:10] Felicia Shelton: Yeah. Yeah. And so as a journalist on that particular journey, that, that trip, what did, like, what exactly, you know, is. Your primary job, like when, you know, there’s the professional side. You’re the journalist. I think someone else is the videographer, like your own, this This trip, this is work. This is not, you know, just, you know, for pleasure, etc.

[00:17:36] And, and this particular trip was so very important, especially for the, you know, African Americans who are there because, like you said, you mentioned tracing their roots and then the transatlantic slave, journey, so you’re there in this capacity, but what are some of the takeaways personally and professionally from that particular trip?

[00:17:59] Courteney Stuart: I mean from that trip I mean that was a pretty unique experience, and I, so I was there, I was sort of I was there both as a journalist, which, you know, sort of separated me from the rest of the delegation because I wasn’t just there for my own personal experience. I was trying to document other people’s, which didn’t mean I wasn’t having my own personal experience, my own personal reactions.

[00:18:19] It certainly was, but my primary goal was to share the experience that these people were having with the people who couldn’t come on the trip to sort of bridge to create this bridge Between those who were on the trip and the end let them sort of share what they wanted to I mean there were I think For a number of people this was so profound.

[00:18:40] I mean, it was really a profound experience I mean some people I mean there may have been some people who’d never left the country before Before, maybe, you know, maybe even never been on a plane before. Exactly. And here they are flying across the ocean to Ghana to have the most like profound connecting with ancestors and connecting with incredibly painful, traumatic history and, and everything that our community had been through the previous year.

[00:19:05] And I mean, it was, it was intense. It was intense. And I felt like my job, my job on that trip. It was very different than probably any other trip I’d ever take was just to try to be like sort of a witness And a conduit for those stories to make their way back to the larger Charlottesville community

[00:19:22] Felicia Shelton: And that’s the thing like you’re you’re traveling you’re you know Traveling as a journalist and you are aware of what you’re there to do But like you said, I love when you said this you’re also having your personal experience By doing the job that you were sent there to do So that’s a different perspective.

[00:19:40] I think, I think it’s a dual perspective going on.

[00:19:43] Courteney Stuart: Right. And I think, right, absolutely. A journalist, you, you, you want to be objective, but there’s no such thing as absolute objectivity or no such thing as existing, you know, without your own personal bias or having your own personal experiences. So you just try to be aware of, like, I’m a white woman who’s going on this trip, that it, the delegation was about half white.

[00:20:05] You know, half of African descent, half of European only descent and half like, you know, and many more people some combination and people trying to work out you know, that whole side of things too. And so, yeah, it’s just, it’s really hard. You know, I know that I’m coming in with that perspective because how can you not? That’s what I’ve lived.

[00:20:24] Felicia Shelton: Exactly. And then now, I mean, as you know, a white American and then you’re coming back. So now you are sort of like now I wouldn’t say an ambassador, but. There are white Americans that will never have that experience, just like there are black Americans that will never have that experience.

[00:20:40] You know, like you said, maybe some of those African Americans this was their first time on a plane, let alone leaving the state. Some may not have ever left the state. I mean, I still know people who have never been on a plane, et cetera. And then to go on this particular, this is not a pleasure cruise, you know, this is a very serious subject.

[00:21:00] And then to have that. When you get there and then now you’re coming back and then as your, your job as a journalist is to share or to build that bridge to, to share experiences with the people in this town, Charlottesville.

[00:21:15] Courteney Stuart: I mean, it was, it was really interesting and also trying to respect like there were places, times and places where maybe I was not welcome in that space in that moment.

[00:21:23] And. So that needed to be like, that’s okay. That is, that was part of that trip. And, and, you know, and there were, it was joyful moments too. There were like great festivals of food and dance and celebration and like magic. So it was, it was that was a really profound trip. And then yeah, they still probably are doing, I don’t, you know, doing the delegations over there.

[00:21:45] I don’t know if it’s every year, but, If it’s not annual, it’s every other year, I think.

[00:21:48] Felicia Shelton: Yeah, I’ll definitely, yeah, attach something in the in the notes about, about that delegation and see if it could be happening. Because, you know, a lot of things have changed since the pandemic.

[00:22:01] You know, a lot of travel was shut down. And now I still feel, you know, when I now get on a plane, I’m like, oh, wow, this is still, it almost feels new. Yeah, I’ve been doing it for years, but I don’t know, the pandemic just changed so much, not just that we couldn’t travel, but now I think there’s a different outlook on how we travel and why we travel and what kind of experiences we want to have.

[00:22:28] I think maybe people now are doing a lot more research before they hop on a plane and go somewhere. I don’t know. I just feel different about travel now.

[00:22:36] Courteney Stuart: I think it’s interesting. I just hosted, I’m actually, my next trip is South by Southwest in Austin, in, coming up, and I’m going to be conducting an interview on stage, so I’m doing like a fireside chat with somebody who’s from the UK, and she came to visit And it was interesting to host somebody and to try to figure out, like, what’s going to make her experience as a traveler in a different country the most meaningful.

[00:23:00] And I thought, you know, what she said actually helped me think about how I want to travel, which is that, like, some of her favorite things were, like, getting together with my friends and just having, like, a meal at somebody’s house. Because it was seeing, like, how people really live, not having sort of a touristy experience, like, actually having these authentic experiences.

[00:23:21] And that’s what I like when I go somewhere. It’s like, I want to, I want to see how do the people who live here live? What is it like to be a person here? What is this experience about?

[00:23:31] Felicia Shelton: Exactly. I mean, you know, if you’re lucky enough to be invited to someone’s actual home in that foreign country that you’re visiting, that is just, it, that is always a highlight for me.

[00:23:42] Because like, you know, to invite someone in your home, no matter where you are in the world is a special occasion in my opinion. But when you’re outside, like you’re a real outsider. You’re in someone else’s country and you get invited, you know, to be around their friends, hopefully at home, but maybe in some sort of space, you know, maybe a favorite restaurant.

[00:24:03] I don’t know. I’m sort of romanticizing it now. You’re staying after hours and they’re like, Hey, yeah, come on in and have dinner with us. And just, just, you know, having that, you know, food is always something that brings people together. Yes. When you’re traveling.

[00:24:17] Courteney Stuart: I think food is one, like one of the highlights of every trip.

[00:24:20] Yeah. Yeah. Right? I mean, you get to know so much about the place you’re visiting and the, and the people by how the food is, like, not just what food you’re eating, but how it’s served, how it’s, you know, where you’re going to eat it.

[00:24:33] Felicia Shelton: Because there are stories behind that. Stories behind we were talking about James Hemmings and I’ll be going to France for, for a little bit.

[00:24:39] And Hmm. James Hemmings. Maybe I can do a little journalistic I don’t know, something to tell a little story about James Hemmings and how the food that we eat, certain foods that we eat really because of him and his his tutelage, I guess, in, in France. So, that’s something that I’m, I’m definitely going to look into.

[00:25:00] Courteney Stuart: That’s cool. When are you going to be in France?

[00:25:02] Felicia Shelton: Maybe sometime in the fall. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think fall. Definitely not the summer because of the Olympics. I don’t want to go anywhere near. That, you know, Paris is going to be taking over with you know, the Olympics and all of that good stuff. So that’s, that’s not for me.

[00:25:18] Courteney Stuart: Yeah.

[00:25:18] Felicia Shelton: Yeah.

[00:25:19] Courteney Stuart: Right. Let it, let it get settled. One of their. Oh, I will say on that same trip, just back to Germany for a minute. A couple of things, one on the food, because we were just talking about the food. That’s right. I thought it was hilarious to go to some restaurants and just see how like different cuisines are interpreted in a different country.

[00:25:34] So like in Germany, we went to a Mexican restaurant and I was like, well, you know, like we all, it’ll be Mexican food. We’ll have a great, a great meal. I was like, somehow there’s bratwurst still in this, on this menu. And, and it’s so funny. It was like, it was like Mexican cuisine through a German filter or something like that.

[00:25:50] And I think we do that too in America. We just, we just assume like that’s what it is. And I, I was talking with You know, I think that is really common like everywhere, you know It’s you sort of take another country’s cuisine and then put it through the filter of whatever your country is.

[00:26:05] Felicia Shelton: Oh, yeah. Like, you know my recent, you know time living in China and you you know you we eat Chinese food here.

[00:26:15] Everybody loves Chinese food Chinese food here. And then you actually go to China like this is that’s the American version of Chinese food with the stuff that we eat here. Yes, and that’s not it. There’s so many different kinds of so-called Chinese food and you know, depending on what province you come from, etc There’s always this this is cooked differently according to where you are You are in the country.

[00:26:39] Where, which province were you in? I was in Beijing. I was in, yeah, Beijing is to me And I’ve heard it said that Beijing is still like the the real China whereas Shanghai is more Westernized and you have more Westerners there. It’s very international. You know, I think Beijing is international, but my friends were like, no, come to Shanghai, Hong Kong, etc.

[00:27:03] They’re more, you will see a lot more foreigners there. But the food in Beijing. that I experienced was just amazing.

[00:27:12] Courteney Stuart: That is amazing.

[00:27:13] Felicia Shelton: And so the vegetables, I mean, just buy a bag of vegetables for, I don’t know, barely a dollar. Whereas, you know, a green pepper or a red pepper here is like 1. 50 for one.

[00:27:24] So you know, just going to different restaurants to experience different cuisines, that was really amazing. Something that was a huge highlight for me. It was wonderful for me to be in China and You know, what people eat in Shenzhen is different from what people eat in, Beijing or Shanghai, etc.

[00:27:47] That was fascinating. And the different, the spices. I’m not a spicy, you know, not too much spice for me, but I definitely learned to stay away from certain provinces because I was like, okay, that’s the spicy spice over here. I’m going to stick to this kind over here. And it was great. I mean, and having someone from China to hold me by the hand and say, this is where we go when we want to really, like, after, you know, Friday afternoon after work, this is where we, you know, my Chinese coworkers head and let me introduce you to what we eat.

[00:28:21] Courteney Stuart: I mean, that’s what then you really are seeing. What it’s like to be in that place. Yes. And I think that’s great. I went, I went to Padua, Italy, after Germany just because I have a friend who moved there.

[00:28:33] Her husband’s a professor now at University of Padua and she’s also got a job there and they, he had dual citizenship. They’ve got two teenage girls. They just picked up and like they bought a house. They live there now. They are not coming back. I love it. And so that was really cool to stay with them.

[00:28:49] They lived there like it’s like I was staying with my high school friend who now lives in this ancient…

[00:28:55] Felicia Shelton: I think you mentioned that you know one day when you coming in and I was like, oh…

[00:28:58] Courteney Stuart: I mean it was wild. And the food, you know just and they are also super foodie so they wanted to take me to every sort of authentic restaurant not the touristy places and it was amazing.

[00:29:11] Felicia Shelton: Since you mentioned your friend in Italy and how they just sort of up sticks and just move there. Is that something that has crossed your mind or maybe living half the time abroad and half the time here?

[00:29:24] Courteney Stuart: Yeah. I mean, I think what appeals to me the most is, is not being stuck to one place because of, you know, work or whatever. I would like to be able to. live wherever or go and stay somewhere for an extended period of time.

[00:29:39] I think, you know, there’s something, there’s something wonderful about having that sort of remote work option, but then I also think that maybe going and working somewhere and having colleagues in that place would be meaningful too. You know, so, so I don’t know if you’re, if you’re working remote, I don’t know that you connect in a place the same way that you do if you get a job that is based there and that you have colleagues and you have sort of a built in like connection to that city or place.

So, yeah. But I would love to start by just doing more traveling and seeing like my friend was like, write a book. You can come stay on my ground floor. She has like a ground floor apartment, you know, for a month. And I was like, that’d be amazing.

Felicia Shelton: Do it.

[00:30:19] Courteney Stuart: Well, I need to like get a book deal before I can do that.

[00:30:23] Felicia Shelton: No, you, you start a blog, blog about it.

[00:30:27] Courteney Stuart: Yeah, but I’d have to make money. I mean, like, that’s the problem. I need somebody to pay me to do it. That, that’s, the money needs to come before I can do

[00:30:32] Felicia Shelton: it. That’s right, everybody. So yeah, we, you know, we are all adults here and we have adult responsibilities.

[00:30:38] And I think it’s, you know, you can, I know some people that have, you know, they were working remotely here in the States and this just happened. I follow a woman on on YouTube and she’s, you know, my age, she’s in her fifties. African American woman and she had a job in FinTech and she moves, you know, her lifetime, lifelong dream was to move to Paris and then boom, she, you know, she starts, you know, YouTube channel and everything and everything’s going well.

[00:31:04] Well, she just announced a couple of days ago that they they fired her. So now she’s like, Hey, you know, she’s very transparent. She was like, Hey, she’s walking down the street, you know, doing her vlogging and everything. Yeah. And she says, yeah, I got some big news. Well, the company that I was working for, well, they just let me go. So now. I’m trying not to scream because I’m panicked and everything. She says, you know, I have some money, but I got to start making some money. So I got to figure it out. So she is going to vlog about her experience. Maybe being in a, she, I think she wants to be a full-time content creator.

[00:31:45] And I’m just going to reach out to her and say, Hey, this is what you need to do. Bop, bop, Because, you know, I spent eight years in Paris teaching English and all these other things. So…

[00:31:54] Courteney Stuart: Were you in, you were in Paris for eight years?

[00:31:57] Felicia Shelton: Yeah, off, yeah, off and on eight years, but eight years in Paris, living, working, writing, blogging, all kinds of things.

[00:32:06] Courteney Stuart: That’s so cool.

[00:32:06] Felicia Shelton: Yeah, but yeah.

[00:32:08] Courteney Stuart: So, yeah. Are you wanting to go back and live abroad at some point soon?

[00:32:12] Felicia Shelton: I don’t know soon, but definitely, yes. Oh, yeah. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t see myself being 65 plus living in the States. I, I, I know too much.

[00:32:27] Courteney Stuart: I know. Do you know where you’d want to, I mean, is there? Is there somewhere that you’d like to go back or is there somewhere that you’ve never been that you are just like, you know, is like sort of next on your list?

[00:32:38] Felicia Shelton: Yeah, I mean, I would, I think it would make more sense for me to, since I speak the language fluently, it would make more sense for me to move back to France and possibly Sweden. I have traveled back to Sweden that my last trip to Sweden was 2016 and that was after 20 plus years of not being there.

[00:32:59] And, let me tell you, when I was there, I was, you know, I’m a tall black woman, and people, the stairs, you know, it was very little, very low immigration there when I was there in the 90s. Now going back, let me tell you, I stepped on the the metro in Stockholm. Brown. Black, you know, just brownness everywhere and so many different languages being spoken on the metro in addition to, to Swedish.

[00:33:27] It was an explosion. So a lot of different people have come to Sweden, they’ve married, they have children, they’re raising their children. Some more diversity. Yeah. Which. All right. So maybe Sweden. Yeah. Yeah. The thing with Sweden and, you know, I still have my Swedish driver’s license and all of that great stuff from my time there.

[00:33:45] I’d spent four years living and working there and studying there as well. Is that it’s cold and I don’t know. If I’m ready for that kind of cold and I went, you know, I returned in 2016, it was, it was, it was in the cold and I said, okay, this is great, but it was unusually warm. There was plenty of snow on the ground when I was there, but it was unusually warm.

[00:34:09] I remember my Swedish winters. Yeah. I don’t know if I want to live day to day because their winters are very long.

[00:34:18] Courteney Stuart: Yeah.

[00:34:18] Felicia Shelton: And it’s pitch black with the stars out at three o’clock in the afternoon. So, I don’t know if I want to go through that again. I think getting over that first year of that, you know, the first year of going back to that is, I know it’s going to be hard, but after anything, you just get used to it.

[00:34:38] And that brings me back to France. So France would be, I think would make sense for me to do that because I don’t have the language barrier. Yeah. I don’t have the cultural barrier. I know the culture is very different from, you know, living in the U. S. and then also, I don’t know if it would be Paris, but there’s a section of Paris called Little Africa.

[00:34:59] And it’s amazing. It’s just wonderful. So certain when, you know, that first couple of years when I lived there I, I missed certain foods like sweet potatoes. And, like, you can’t find sweet potatoes in a regular grocery store, not at that time. And somebody says, go up to, go up to this, you know, this metro station, that metro station, and I got out of the Chateau Rouge, and there was all these black people, and I was like, oh my God, it’s Africa up here, and it was, it’s just nothing but lovely black people, and I found the market, and I’m like, oh my God, there’s a sweet potato, and this is the, the cocoa butter, the real cocoa butter that I can, you know, use on my skin, and I said, oh.

[00:35:40] This is where I can get my, you know, products and produce that I miss from my culture back home. I can get that here and bring it back to my little apartment in the 15th. It was great. And going back to Paris now, it’s so diverse. I was just there recently just for a couple of days, but we got the opportunity to go to Portugal.

[00:36:06] Courteney Stuart: I’ve never been there. Oh, yeah.

[00:36:07] Felicia Shelton: Portugal. We were in England for two weeks and then I hopped over, took that little train over to Paris just for a couple of days to, to do a little filming and all of that great stuff. But Portugal is really, really beautiful. Hot right now for retirees, it’s been like that for quite some time, but now a lot more Americans our age and younger they’re saying, hey, I’m just going to get a remote job and move to Portugal because now a lot of European countries are making it easy or easier to get those work visas, those residency visas to, to work and to live.

[00:36:45] So why not? I mean, it’s, it’s a, it, the, I think Europe. And the world in general is a lot more open to foreigners to not only go there for pleasure, but to also come there with their skills to build lives, to add to the economy, et cetera. So, you know, if If you’re interested, you know,

[00:37:06] Courteney Stuart: I definitely could be that might be that might be one of my next, you know, next steps eventually. I mean, I would love to live abroad.

[00:37:14] Felicia Shelton: Where would you like to go?

[00:37:16] Courteney Stuart: You know, I need to do a little more research. But Portugal is one that appeal to me. I I’ve looked at some of the Central American or South American cities, like Ecuador apparently has a really big expat. I’d like to visit there. Costa Rica was great when I went, I went and..

[00:37:33] Felicia Shelton: That’s really hot right now.

[00:37:34] Courteney Stuart: Really lovely. But but, you know, I mean, I’d want to be somewhere that, you know, I’ve heard Mexico City and Panama City are both like, amazing.

[00:37:44] Felicia Shelton: Panama City. I was just on a webinar yesterday and there was part, part three today is a webinar about moving abroad, working abroad, the different type of visas for this person. You know, she’s bringing in lawyers to say, well, if this is your situation, this is how you go about that, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:38:03] So I’m seeing a lot more webinars about moving abroad. Americans are leaving and you know, and also a lot of black women are leaving and they’re bringing those skills to other parts of the world because, you know, we face certain things here that we’re kind of tired of.

[00:38:21] And so, we’re like, hey, let’s go. Let’s go somewhere else.

[00:38:25] Courteney Stuart: Makes sense.

[00:38:26] Felicia Shelton: Makes sense to me.

[00:38:28] Courteney Stuart: I can think, I can yeah.

[00:38:29] Felicia Shelton: I could see, I could definitely see you in Portugal. Oh my gosh.

[00:38:33] Courteney Stuart: Yeah. Well, hopefully I’ll get to go there at least on a, on a vacation or, you know, a trip. Cause I, I do love the idea of just checking up, you know, checking some places out and then thinking about it.

[00:38:42] Felicia Shelton: Go on a scouting. Yeah. They’re called scouting trips. My dear friend booked a flight. He will leave for Lisbon tonight at 9:30. He’s leaving from Philly, direct flight to Lisbon. From there, he will go to Morocco. And then from there, he will go to Dublin. And then he’s coming back home.

[00:38:59] I think he might be doing some scouting trips of his own. But Portugal is definitely the one that everyone finds that it’s easy to integrate into.

[00:39:08] Courteney Stuart: Yeah, sounds amazing. Yeah? I’m, I’m gonna go check it out. Check it out.

Felicia Shelton: I’m gonna help you.

Courteney Stuart: All right, you help me. You’re gonna help me make this a dream happen.

[00:39:15] Felicia Shelton: Oh my gosh Courtney Stewart, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your travel experiences with us Everyone I will put down in the notes, you know The podcast the Netflix special and just any other information that you would like for us to share thank you like to share with the, the listeners, but thank you so much.

[00:39:37] Courteney Stuart: Thank you, Felicia. I really appreciate it. It’s been fun.

Felicia Shelton: Yeah. Thank you. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for this episode and for listening and ciao.