Unlocking Global Perspectives: A Professor’s Insights on Study Abroad

Felicia Shelton: Hello everyone. Thank you so much for once again tuning in for another episode of In My Travels, where we speak about how travel affects your personal viewpoint as well as your professional life. Today, we’re We have a very special guest. And I know I say that, but all of my guests are very special because they have such amazing life experience.

And I love to speak with them about their travel experiences. The last episode we had someone who spoke about study abroad. Today I bring you. a bona fide professor of German and philosophy from the University of Hampden, Sydney. And we are going to talk about study abroad. His experiences as being an American with a German perspective and so many other things.

So I’m going to introduce to you, Mr. Dirk Johnson, and I’m going to allow him to speak about himself for a couple of minutes.

Dirk Johnson: Thank you, Felicia. And thank you for having me. This is a wonderful opportunity and I I really appreciate the opportunity to speak about study abroad. Well yeah, I’m sort of bicultural, bilingual.

I, my mother is German. She came over right after the war, well, in the, in the fifties, married my father and I grew up in New York City. With my brother and every summer we went to Germany, a small little town in northern Bavaria, in Franconia, it’s called, Franken, and medieval, beautiful medieval historic town, and so every summer, three months to three months, I was there with them, with my great aunts, who were like our parents.

grandparents to me. They were just wonderful, wonderful people. And so in that time in Germany, I learned how to speak German. Strange enough, we didn’t really continue it much once we got back to the States because, I don’t know, my mother really didn’t push it much at home, but my father was able to speak speak German as well.

But I was during those summers there that I really you know, was fully immersed in German because my mother, my great aunts didn’t speak any English. So basically I think it was, I went every summer except for maybe one all the way through high school. And then when I got to college, I decided to major in German.

It made sense. And I studied a lot of the literature. I only had one Grammar course, and that was in ninth grade at my high school in Providence, Rhode Island, where I learned the basics of Of German grammar, and I you know, of course I was good in the class, but I never had experienced it from that point of view And then of course when I got to the college, I was right away in the literature courses.

So I fell in love with you know, the literature and the culture more and went one year to Germany in Munich, University of Munich with the Wayne State study abroad program in Munich and had a great time there. And then came back, graduated senior year and then decided soon after, about six months after I graduated, I said, you know, I miss Germany.

I, I don’t, I just see myself back there. I just need to finish that chapter of my, of my life in, in, you know, that, that I’d started there. And went back to you know, Germany and got a job at went to Bonn the former capital. And there I enrolled at the university and did some side jobs. I worked for the Wall Street Journal office there as a sort of office assistant and did a lot of you know, work with journalism there and got a magista in Germany.

But then after seven years, I said, time is up. I need to come back to the States. Came back to New York, worked two years there, decided I was sort of unhappy doing, you know, kind of just getting back into the groove. I said, you know, I’m really more academic. I want to continue studying German and become a German professor because that makes sense for everything I’ve done so far in Germany.

Also, I was teaching English as a second language. I was teaching at Berlitz and in Lingua, where I met my wife at the time. So that, you know, basically opened. My eyes up to foreign language instruction. I really enjoyed that. So I said, I can see myself doing that. You know, as a career that I teach languages and, and stay connected with my, my German culture.

Felicia Shelton: That’s a lot. It’s

Dirk Johnson: a lot to

Felicia Shelton: unpack. That’s a lot to unpack. And what what a pathway that you, you know, you forge for yourself. I love the way that you just said that, you know what you spent, you said you, you wanted to go back to where it all started and to. You know, not necessarily close a chapter, but discover more about your German culture and what it means for you to be German and spend seven years doing that.

And there became a moment that you said, okay, well now it’s time for me to go back. What’s that all about? Because that sometimes when you travel and especially with you having that American and German Perspective what what was that moment? What? How did you come to that moment that says you know what it’s time for me to to go

Dirk Johnson: Well, that’s a good question.

I it wasn’t something that was entirely rational It was just that I felt like I didn’t even though I Could have easily pursued a couple of avenues, one very promising one, my, my graduate professor at political science. I studied political science actually, and as a major course you know hired me as his academic assistant and which is, you know, was a prestigious position for an undergrad or for a graduate student.

And and I just didn’t see myself at that time living and wanting to stay in Germany, I thought. And I think. To answer the question, I guess there was something saying, a little bit of a guilt in a way, saying, I have to come back to these states. I, that’s, that’s part, that part of me is my true side.

I live there and I can’t just sort of give up on that. And so I, I said, you know, Germany I just couldn’t see myself there. Although looking back, I somewhat regret that because I think I would’ve had a, a very interesting career in Germany as well. But, you know, I came back to the States and here I am,

Felicia Shelton: When you just said that, it just made me think of, yeah, had I stayed a little bit longer in France, what would my life look like right now? But we’ll get into all of that a little bit later. As someone with both an American and German perspective, let’s, you know, we’re going to start talking about students.

How do you think the two cultures compare when it comes to education? and student life, because now you’re a German, you’re a professor of German and philosophy here in America. And I know that you’ve taken students to Germany. Would you as a professor, what are the differences that you see between maybe German students and how they study and American students, especially the American students that you take abroad with you?

Dirk Johnson: That’s a great question. I think yeah, I’ve experienced both in depth. I mean, I studied at Bowdoin College in Maine, a traditional liberal arts college, and I wanted to go to a very traditional New England style liberal arts college because I always had, you know, Idolize that a little bit, you know, the leafyness and, you know, all that, that just sort of, that was for me prototypical American education, liberal arts education.

And I turned down bigger places for, for the reason that I wanted that. Uum, And then then I went to Munich for a year, studied there, but through a program. But then when I went back to Bonn on my own, I studied completely on my own and enrolled in the university and was a normal student among all the other students.

And I saw that. perspective. One step back when I came back from Munich and finished my senior year in college, I wrote a thesis actually on the German university system because I was so and what led to the radicalization of the students at the university in the twenties that actually made them the first group in the world.

Institutional group to support Hitler in the twenties which is sort of unknown fact or, you know, a little known. So and I said, how could that have happened? So I, I sort of try to figure that out and, and explore that question, but sort of to move forward again I came back and admired again, the liberal arts college.

I said, you know what, the German system is good, but I think that the American liberal arts. College focuses on the whole person and wants them to experience a lot of different disciplines and, and, and cares about, you know, that, that sort of creation of the whole person. Whereas the German university is more research oriented, it’s more solitary.

But then when I went back to Bonn at the university, I started, It started going to the other direction again. I started to like the German system more. And the reason for that are two reasons. I think one is that back when I was studying, I know that things have changed a lot at the university. Now they’ve become more American style with, with allowing you to jump off earlier with BA and masters, they even call it.

But when I was there, it was only Magista. And then there was PhD. That was it. And then Magista is like, is, it was higher. It’s higher than the masters. But it’s not as high as a PhD, just add a couple more years to do a PhD if you want to stay on. Huh. But what, the problem with that system was that a lot of students weren’t able to jump off earlier, they didn’t have anything in their hands.

So it just seemed like they, they had to study too long and and there were like these so called, the Germans call them the eternal students that never Left. Yeah. The university, 40-year-old students next to you? And we

Felicia Shelton: have some here as well in the, in the States? Yeah. Well, I

Dirk Johnson: guess so. But anyway I, I, I sort of liked the, the fact that when, when, when I was there, there was this masta, and this, the way this studies were set up is that you would go to a seminar or.

then when you were more specialized, you’d go to your seminars in your discipline. My, my so major was political science and my, my minors were German and philosophy. And so I would go to those seminars and then all you had to do is really give one oral presentation during the semester and then write a 25 page paper research paper with footnotes and all the appendage and all that.

So but other than that, you are free. I mean, you had to be in control of your own, of your own studies. And that’s why a lot of people sank because they just didn’t have that self discipline. I had it in me to, to be disciplined and finished it in like three years, I think. Yeah. Three years. And but, but I, but other than that, you were free to do the life of a student, which was to go anywhere, to travel, to, they see that as part.

of, of your studies. It’s not just being in the library, studying books, memorizing and all that. It’s, it’s living, but making sure that you’re on their game, do what you need to do. And and, and so that I, that is something that I think the Germans say that the American system is very verschult, which means a school with all the homework and the busy work and all that.

Whereas there it’s much more, you know, free and creative in the sense of that you set the parameters. And then the second reason was, is that I think that you can develop the German university in your discipline, a very focused, passionate interest. And they reward you for being original in one area.

And we do that here as well, but I think in Germany there is, you actually do it and get a job. Outside the university, whereas here you go into academics, basically, so I like the fact that whereas here the whole idea of the general education is nice, but in reality, it doesn’t really allow anybody to delve deep into a question to look at something more.

To offer an original contribution in the field necessarily.

Felicia Shelton: When you take students How many students do you usually take with you to Germany and how long do you stay there?

Dirk Johnson: So, it can the, the, the smallest group we’ve had was a couple of years ago, and that was eight, eight students, and that’s smaller than normal.

Usually we have 10 to 14 in that range. In fact, we just heard that the, the deadline was a couple of days ago, and we have 13 this year. So it’s, it’s, it varies from 10 to 14 on, on average, and then sometimes it falls, dips a little

Felicia Shelton: lower. And how long do you stay? Five weeks. Five weeks. Okay. So because our previous guest, I believe she studied at John Cabot, but it was through a third party.

And so now we’re talking about a professor led study abroad, which is a completely, as you’re describing it, it’s completely different. completely different experience. So what do you find maybe is the biggest takeaway for students so far that you’ve taken when they are with their professor in Germany studying and then they come back?

What’s some of the feedback Did they feel, did they get to experience that experience where you said that they have more autonomy, they’re more creative? What has been the feedback so

Dirk Johnson: far? Well, it’s been very diverse. Basically many of them definitely pick up on the freedom that they get.

I mean, you know, in America, students tend to be a little bit bubble wrapped and, you know yeah. Protected and very much so. Right. And so the parents are all, you know, biting their nails, what can happen. And, and in Germany you’re just you’re on your own and you know, you’re an adult. And so the fact that they see that and experience that is very rewarding for them.

And I think also just being able to navigate new situations, get outta their comfort zone. And they, they learn to be more autonomous and more independent and successful when they come back. I

Felicia Shelton: love that. So what are some of the biggest cultural differences Americans need to be prepared for before studying in Germany?

Dirk Johnson: Before we go, we always have a little session with the students to sort of get them ready for what to experience, what to expect with their, and they all get the four weeks that we are in Münster, where, where we go, they’re with homestays with families.

They, that’s part of the requirement. I mean, that’s what makes it. The program special is that each of them get a host family and sometimes they have children in the family. Sometimes they’re just the children have grown up and they’re just with the parents. But in any case, they get that experience.

And So we have to prepare them for what to expect in those homestays, and there are a lot of interesting cultural differences between Americans and Germans, and I’ll mention a couple. For example, we tell them, don’t take your long American showers, you know, where, you know, you sauna conditions in the showers, the Turkish bath.

I mean, I see with my own eyes. One of my sons, I won’t say which one who is like, you know, you come in there and it’s like a steam bath afterward. They go into the shower to get clean and then get out. Water is expensive and you know, they don’t their, their showers are pretty functional and it’s just take a shower and get out.

And so if you take these long showers, they’re going to, they’re not going to be very happy. Yeah. They’re, they’re, you’re, it’s pretty expensive. Running up the water bill, right? And, and it’s, it’s wasteful. Then food, for example, right? So they get meals at home and Americans tend to say, okay, when the person, would you like some more?

Yeah, I’ll like, I’ll take some more. Maybe don’t even like it, you know, but then don’t eat it because they don’t want to say, They don’t want to say they don’t like it, right? So they want to please the Ho’s family. But then the food gets thrown away. And Germans do not like that. I didn’t know that. No, they do not like waste.

And so and a lot of that is cultural. It’s the scars of war. I mean, we’re, what, almost 80 years later, but still it’s in their DNA. My mother was a young young child during the last days of the war. And to this day, she, she gnaws all the meat off her bone. She sucks out the marrow.

She eats entire apple with just leaving the core. And those people that they experienced the war directly, but the next generations. Also, they just, you just don’t throw

Felicia Shelton: waste food. That’s right. Because they had that, you know, your, your mother’s generation saying that don’t waste any food. So now that’s a part of them.

And I did not

Dirk Johnson: know. And then, and then electricity, another example, right? And Americans tend to just leave lights on. They don’t think about it. It’s not very expensive. But in Germany, electricity is very expensive and they don’t, you know, they just find it wasteful. So long and short of it is Germans are very aware of natural resources and they live very tightly and they, part of it’s cost driven and part of it is just their respect for nature and respect for not wasting the environment.

And Americans tend to be, we have a very big country. We have a very, a lot of things are a lot cheaper than other places. And so we, there’s not a sense of really understanding how to be you know cautious with electricity, with showers and all that. They’re just not aware of how much that costs and, and how much it costs.

That’s a

Felicia Shelton: great point. And I did not know that your students actually stayed with families. I’m thinking that you’re taking them to a university dorm and everyone has their dorm room. So this is even better because now you get to live with a German family day in, day out. Correct. And learn the rules and regulations of that family and the culture, the German way of conserving energy and food and, and things like this. When you were describing that, it reminded me of my time in Sweden. That was the first time I had ever left the country. I was 20 years old. I did not speak Swedish, didn’t know anything about the Swedish culture, but immediately I remember.

how they have this passion for nature and general respect of how to get rid of things, how to recycle things. And this was, you know, this was back in, I think I left the country in 1990, 1991. And I had never thought about, Oh, this is how you get rid of this paper, but we’re going to get rid of it in this way.

And this is the Swedish way of doing this and taking long walks in, in nature because it’s, it’s good to be in the forest because it calms you and does so many good things for you mentally. And. just to sit in a family and, and hear people speaking this way. Whereas in America, we don’t do that. You know, let’s go to the beach, you know, and you know, we enjoy the beach and things like this, but the respect for animals I had never.

Had never heard or seen such reverence for just the simple way of life and Just they just love nature. Hmm. Same with Germans. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Could you share a story about a time when you’re a dual cultural background? Was an advantage in navigating a challenging situation abroad.

Dirk Johnson: Yeah. The one thing that comes to mind was a, an experience maybe several years ago when I took a group over the usual program in Minster, but we always start in Erfurt, which is a medium sized city in in Terringia on the former East germany right on the border of East German and Western Germany.

And we were, it was the first night out, we went to a sort of a beer garden in the middle of the city and we were socializing there and, and getting to know each other because it was the first time the group was out together and we were talking, you know, Not loud, but just enjoying ourselves.

And I looked over and I saw this small table with a couple of people there. And one person kept on looking over at us, looking over at us in a strange way. And I was like, why is, why is he so interested in us? And and then at one point he started, Talking loudly in English and saying sort of critical negative things about Americans.

And yeah, and so it was, I can’t remember exactly what kind of comments he made, but it was I could, he was clearly trying to provoke the students . And then one point he even walked over to the table and started engaging the students being a little bit provocative, controversial, and it was an awkward situation.

But then I started speaking German to him and he looked at me and he was a bit surprised. He says, wow, you speak really good German. I didn’t know that you were German. And I, and I said, well, I’m here with this group and explained it to him. And then he sort of loosened up, got softened up. And then.

Actually sat at the table and we talked some more and and then he also started engaging with the students and so within a half an hour or so he was talking with the students, he had softened up and I realized that he had grown up in the former East, right, in, in GDR, and that a lot of that is the indoctrination.

They were told to see Americans as enemies or as the bourgeoisie or whatever, you know, they, they got a very negative view of the Americans. And so that lingers on in their psyche in a way. But I noticed underneath that even is admiration for America the Germans always have a little bit of that dual side to them where they want to have their own pride but at the same time look over America with with admiration but not with not too much admiration, right.

However, in the east, it was absolutely preserved. Really like they are our enemies. They’re bad. And so a lot of that came through and I think in this hostility toward the group But when he really started talking with us that was dissolved and he got more relaxed And so I think he realized that We were just Trying to have fun and and actually caring about learning about Germany

Felicia Shelton: exactly.

That’s a wonderful story. And I Love the way that you said How certain German people at the time had the misconception about America that, you know, that we’re the enemies and things like this. I mean, everyone, I don’t care who you are. We all have our prejudgments or our conceptions of who or what this country is all about, et cetera.

But the fact that he in the beginning he was, like you said, provocative and maybe, you know, coming over there and being a bit confrontational, but upon, you know, maybe five or 10 minutes. Oh. And then here, here you are an American who speaks German fluently because of your background and then Oh, then he relaxes a bit and then he sits down and now we have this sharing, we’re sharing our cultural awareness or we’re having this moment where, Oh, I thought that it was going to be this way, but actually it’s this way.

And let me sit down and learn more about why these young people are here in my country, learning about my country. And wow, what a wonderful thing that. They are doing and I think he probably felt very proud of that and maybe, you know, a little bit shameful like, okay, you know, I kind of messed up here, but, but thank goodness that he had.

the intelligence to sit down and listen to you and engage your students and yourself in that moment. And who knows, maybe his, you know, perception of Americans changed a little bit that day. You just never know what kind of interactions you will have with people and what you’re going to walk away with.

And that’s wonderful. And for all of my lovely Americans who are listening I’m sure you have some prejudices against, you know, the French or the German and, and you think, you know, Germans are this way, et cetera. I certainly have my perception of, or misconceptions about the French people before I started, before I started living there.

What are some common misconceptions Americans have about Germany and German culture?

Dirk Johnson: Well, we all sort of get a very stereotypical picture of Germans. You know, we think of it as the Busch Gardens variety of Germans, right? I mean the, the big, big beer, the Stein, the, the the I love when my students say the lederhosen, which means the song pants.

No, it’s the lederhosen, the leather pants, the leather pants and the whole you know, beautiful countryside, of course, and, and just how it’s, it’s just a bucolic version of Germany. That’s, it’s partly true. I mean, Bavaria has a lot of that. Still to this day has that kind of a feel to it. But it’s it’s it’s really not that way.

Germany is a highly industrial, modern, progressive society. It’s become increasingly multicultural, has a very significant Turkish population. It has you know Of course, in the news several years ago, Angela Merkel allowed in one million Syrians into Germany. And that’ll have a major influence over time in terms of the makeup of the country.

So it’s a very, very different society than that. And And, and Americans need to see that side as well and realize that that picture of Germany is, is, I wouldn’t say sanitized, but it’s just, it’s just a stereotypical and modern Germany is, is As I said, very progressive, very technologically advanced.

And we can learn a lot from, from the way they structure their society.

Felicia Shelton: Exactly. There’s a really great film that I loved. I think it’s by Michael Moore. I think it’s called where to invade next. And one of the places that they that he visited was Germany. And so the movie is all about him going to different countries.

I think it was in Slovenia. He was in Italy. It starts with Italy and then he went to Germany and a very famous pencil brand that’s,

Dirk Johnson: Faber, Faber

Felicia Shelton: Castello. Yes. And he actually visited the factory and he was just amazed at how beautiful the factory was that people had light streaming through the windows.

And, you know, you think about the industrial revolution here and how, we had children working in dark and dangerous factories and, and it was all about how these foreign countries. actually adopted some of, you know, our greatest, you know, sort of ideas about how to live, how to work, but they actually put it into, put it into practice and, and how we’ve lost that here in America.

And they also talked about the maternity leave for women in Germany. Germany is very attractive. Like you said, it is a very progressive country. I follow a couple of people on Instagram and they are Americans living, working and thriving in Germany and they’re helping people to say, Hey, if you, you’re thinking about studying here.

This is the German way of studying. I know you and I, we had a conversation about how less expensive it is to acquire your master’s degree as opposed to here in America. There’s just so much going on in Germany right now. I even almost moved to Berlin. This was, you know, years ago because it was so attractive.

And and then I found a website Freundin von Freundin, excuse me if I’m butchering German. And I shared that website with you and it’s just, it’s just wonderful to see So many people from all, you know, ages and walks of life doing really creative wonderful work in, in Germany right now. What else would you say, like, if, do you, is there, is Germany just for young students?

Would you encourage, could a person in their thirties, forties, fifties, still come to Germany to study? And also, could they also make a contribution to Germany?

Dirk Johnson: Don’t know about that age range in terms of like what? Of course, it would become more difficult because I would think because it’s not the traditional study age.

And but there are Germany has a vast school system. There are different types of schools for different things. So you have the standard sort of traditional university, the Munich or the tubing in Göttingen, Heidelberg. And then you have technical universities. Then you have Fachhochschulen, which are for ongoing education as well.

They offer courses in certain areas like. Cooking or travel or whatever. They have courses around that for training purposes. So, and, and those are more open to any , age range. And you can take courses there at whatever age. And so, I mean, it’s not necessarily for a career, but it could be. I just don’t know enough about it.

Felicia Shelton: Mm hmm. And the reason why I ask everyone, because you just never know. Maybe I’ll Get a master’s in Germany. I don’t know. You know, I got my, I did study abroad in France and my degree is in French and my minor is in international relations, but why not?

Dirk Johnson: Why not? I wish I

Felicia Shelton: agree. Wonderful things happening in Germany.

It’s very attractive. Oh, yes. What would you say is the most attractive thing for an American student when it comes to Germany?

Dirk Johnson: I would say that great freedom that they have. Yes. You know, the nice thing about our program is that we have classes during the week from Monday through Friday, nine to five nine to 12, sorry.

And it’s just morning and then they’re free to walk around the town. We have our classes in, in the center of the town. They can walk around explore, then. But that whole time they can just do whatever and, and explore the city and, and do activities, meet with people. And there’s a, there’s a great freedom within that, and I think that that is very attractive to the students.

They really enjoy that aspect.

Felicia Shelton: And at your university do you prepare, your students for what they will experience possibly in, in Germany. But I find that sometimes parents don’t want, or they have some misgivings or they have some fears about sending their their students, their child to another country.

Do you also have, do you get to speak with parents about, you know, the benefits of their child studying abroad?

Dirk Johnson: Fortunately, I don’t have to hear much from the parents, and I guess there’s always the exception. But to be honest, I don’t recall many parents really contacting me. I think that they they give faith in their child that that he will do fine.

I say he because most of our students are male. That’s right. And so, so I don’t I think that. That shows intelligence on their part that they realize that that’s part of the reason why they should be going is that they get that they learn to be independent and learn how to thrive in that environment, learn how to manage, navigate and come back better suited for the real world and be more mature.

Felicia Shelton: I love that. And, and, you know, with the previous guest I think studying abroad gives you confidence, confidence in yourself, confidence in the fact that, you know, like you said, your classes, when you take the American student abroad, they’re from nine to 12. And then after that, it’s hands off. Even though this is a professor led program, right?

Yeah. They’re in class and that’s it. Are there other being that it’s a professor led program, are there times when you check in with each student or how easily can the student come to you if they’re having, I don’t know, maybe some homesickness or we’ve had

Dirk Johnson: that recently. We had a student a couple of years ago who had a severe case of homesickness and there was, actually discussion whether he should go home or not.

Luckily he got some treatment and he was able to finish the program. But it was something that just sort of came suddenly and was pretty strong. But generally the students adopt adapt very well and don’t have issues. At least they don’t talk to me about them. Yeah, we’re there for them for any issues like that.

I was jumped in in that situation and, and help that student get what he needed to, to finish the program. And We, we meet with them regularly. It’s not like, okay, 12, I’ll see you tomorrow morning. It’s like Oh, the market is open. Let’s go to the market. Or, or let’s have a little study session and later in the afternoon and in town or on a Friday night.

Well, I will. Wow. Here I am in the student bar popping in. Hey, Dr. Johnson, have a beer with us. You know, that kind of a thing. I mean, that’s what we, that’s what we encourage and welcome is that they feel like you know, Someone is there that will enjoy the time with them and, give them a sense of belonging there.

Felicia Shelton: So what inspired you to help American students study abroad in Germany? Like how do you share your passion for Germany because you’re American and German. So how does that, how do you share your passion for the German culture with your students? So,

Dirk Johnson: So we do have, so our program is generally, we start in Erfurt.

We land in Frankfurt, immediately go to Erfurt, which is about two and a half hours from Frankfurt. And it’s a, it’s a medieval city, rich with history. It was a very important medieval city with a lot of links to trade. And then we start actually, before we hit Erfurt, close by is the castle of Wartburg.

And the Wartburg is a famous castle from the Middle Ages where Luther hid. During the reformation after he was asked to recant, he had to skip town. And the, the local, uh, first uh, hid him in this castle where. He finished the translation of the Bible, which was seminal for German history and for the Reformation.

And you can even go to the, his, his room where he, where he lived. And there is an inkwell where apparently that’s where he saw the devil one night coming to him and he threw the inkwell at the wall. So you can even see that.

And then in Erfurt and as well as in Münster, you have the so called Stolpersteine, which are little, I should have looked up again how to translate that, but they’re, they’re little golden cobblestones that they put into the street in front of the houses where Jewish families were taken out and sent to the concentration camps.

And in that little engraved Golden stone. They write, who it was, their life years and a lot of times, you know, dot, dot, dot, you know, went to Theresienstadt or went to you know, Dachau or whatever. And they sometimes don’t know the dates and sometimes it could be an entire family, sometimes just one or two people.

And I think that’s a very powerful way. That Germans deal with their past very commendable because it’s it’s subtle. It’s it makes you realize, you know, here lived a whole culture that has disappeared. And yet, in this house, there was this this Jewish household and is no longer. Around and it’s, it’s makes you realize that history is all around you.

And so that’s what I would what I’m trying to get at is that you, you really appreciate the layers of history in Germany. We’re not talking about our history of 400 years. We’re talking 2000 years. We’re talking, and we take them to Cologne and we walk down the streets, the cobblestone streets of the Romans.

There’s still a stretch next to the cathedral Of the Roman cobblestone streets that they built in, the first century when that region was conquered by the Romans. So this is what, this is the continuity of German history, basically going all the way back, Greece, Rome, Germany, Christianity, and, and, and all that.

layers and layers, including, as I mentioned, the Jewish history

Felicia Shelton: as well. This is amazing. So how long, how old is the study abroad program at Hampden Sydney?

Dirk Johnson: So I took it over and I want to give this person the credit Gunther Klabes. He was a professor at Vassar College. He’s now in the meantime retired and lives outside of Munich with his partner and he formed this started this program at, at Vassar and in 1972 and it was a huge success at the college.

He was able to hire more German professors based on the success of the program. And he also Had a connection to Virginia because he knew someone at Sweetbriar. He knew someone also at William and Mary and William and Mary went on the program for many, many years, sent a lot of their students on the program. Through my connection to the Sweetbriar professor. He said, why don’t you send students? So I sent my first students there 2004. I started at Hampton Sydney 2001. So we were like four years later. So I sent my first students on this program. And then when he retired in 2012, 13, I said, Vassar didn’t want to continue it.

Nobody at the in the German department really was interested in that commitment. And I said, Hey, I can take it over. And I interested Hampton Sydney. Sponsoring it. So it’s been there ever since. I love that. So we have a program that dates back to 1972. Yeah. Ongoing. Mm. Gunter Klavis did it every single year for 30 years.

You never missed a year. And you know, since I’ve had it, we’ve only missed because of COVID in one year. We didn’t have as many students, but otherwise I’ve done it every year. And yeah, so it’s, it’s, it’s one of a kind that most programs are semester long programs. But this niche of a five week program where students can take the courses toward a minor, major, or finish their language requirement, basic language requirement, either one they can do in a four week, five week period, and then come back to the program.

And maybe find a job or an internship. So it doesn’t, it doesn’t take over the whole summer. So and, and some students want a minor in German or even major in German, but they, their their major, other major is bio or economics. And it’s so intensive that they can’t fit in a lot of the courses that they need. So this is an ideal program. The summer is perfect. The summer is perfect for that. They can pick up two. to courses either toward the requirement or to the major minor.

Felicia Shelton: I’m glad I know more about the history of your study abroad program at Hampden Sydney.

Now let’s move into what we spoke about maybe a couple of weeks ago. You know, we’re thinking about You know, both you and I, we have worked abroad, we’ve studied abroad, and we’re at a time in our life where we’re like, Hmm, maybe this thing we call American life is has run its course. Tread lightly here.

We have to tread very lightly here. But I know that there are some very attractive, you know, wherever you are, there’s really great things about living here. But with both of us having had spent time abroad. And we were talking about living abroad, working abroad, we were talking about some benefits of, you know, just the cost of the difference between living here in America and the cost of living in in Europe in general.

Do you think at this time, I don’t know if you’ve paid attention to TikTok and all the social media, there’s so many Americans of all ages, mostly our age, and they are just now waking up to the fact that, hey, I can actually live somewhere else. And, and I’ve seen more people begin to speak about living in Germany, but my thing is when you’re thinking about living abroad and working abroad, you have to think of what you are going to do in that other country.

You’re not just there to take advantage of the holidays and things like this. What do you think of the Americans who are beginning to live in Germany, do you think that they have any idea of what they’re in for and, and what’s your attitude about that?

Or maybe adults, not so much the students, but maybe, maybe people in their twenties and thirties who are now beginning to get into the workforce. What do you think about this whole thing about Americans just flooding? Europe, because they’re tired of the so called American way of life.

Dirk Johnson: Well, I, I, I, I can totally understand. My whole life has been sort of navigating these two worlds and, and thinking that through and there are a lot of things I highly value in Germany. I mean, I know the things I don’t like and I know, and part of the reasons there were some things at the time we got back to the other question you asked, why I left to go back to America.

There were things that really were. annoying me about Germans and Germany at that time. But I recognize that Germany has a lot of virtues in terms of lifestyle and cost of living that are definitely, I think, better than here. I, it is very difficult to get into the German market and the German.

society because it is more bureaucratic and it is more you know, more controlled and in the sense of you know, you have to, you have to go to a an office to show where you live and you have to sign in. This is where, apartment, it’s not like we’re in America where you can just live anywhere and you don’t have to.

Tell anybody about it. So there’s a lot of little restrictions and stuff like that that make it challenging. I hear it now through that student. I was telling you before about who wants to go back to Germany, but has a lot of bureaucratic hurdles there. So there is that. But once you’re in it and have a job there, The benefits are great, I think.

I think that the pay is very, is generally good. Health is, is very good. If you have children, it’s, it’s amazing because you have entire educational system is paid all the years through, through university. Health is health system is very, very solid. I mean, there’s, it’s, there is more individual contribution now, but I mean, it’s nothing like in the U.

S. Public transportation is absolutely amazing. You never have to, you never, you have to go into a car. You can take a train and go directly out to the countryside and come back. I mean, everything is very highly efficient. Food is, is more reasonable. Rents are more reasonable. The problem is that, you It’s hard to find an apartment because there is a shortage.

They don’t build as much as they do in America. And so when a German finds an apartment that they like, that they can afford, they just stay there for their whole lives. You know, they don’t leave it. And there’s just, you know, they rent apartments more than buy and and there’s a lot of, there are more rental apartments, but it’s still a tight market for rentals.

So you try to get something that you like, you, you, you spend a lot of time trying to get that one apartment and then you stick, you stay there. I guess

Felicia Shelton: so because you’ve done all of this work and you’re like, okay, this is where I’m going to be for, For a

Dirk Johnson: while. Yeah. Yeah. You make it your own and it’s and it’s in the rent is more reasonable.

Berlin is a city that I’m definitely considering after I retire in the next couple of years. And I grew up in New York City and I’m a city person. I’m an urban person. I, I thrive most in an urban environment. And and so Berlin is is an amazing city. It reminds me a lot of New York in the seventies where New York gets a bad rap in the seventies, and I understandably so.

But I mean, That’s what all I knew, you know, Times Square was seedy and you know, there’s certain places you couldn’t go and but it was, you know, it was also vibrant culturally that a lot of interesting things like percolated up in the seventies in New York. Berlin has a little bit of that.

I mean, not, you know, not it’s also a safe city and pretty much clean city and, but it’s got a lot of the vitality. A lot of young people are moving to Berlin. There’s a. You know, the club scene is one of the best in the world. They say not that I would go there anymore. But but cafes, I mean, amazing museums, world class museums.

Three opera houses. I don’t think any other city that I know of can compare to that. 000 students in Berlin. You’ve got the Free University, you’ve got the famous Humboldt University, the first one, and then you’ve got the Technical University. So you’ve got that it’s just there’s my favorite bookstore, English bookstore, is in Berlin.

Oh, what’s the name? It’s off the Friedrichstrasse and or on the Friedrichstrasse and it’s a it’s part of a cultural center and it’s, it’s on the second floor and it’s got books for adults for intelligent people that you cannot find anymore in books on politics.

And I mean, that, that you just can’t see, like, stocked in, in books. In one place in a bookstore in America. So just interesting titles all the time. And, and I don’t know why we can’t do that, but apparently Berlin does it. Well, you know,

Felicia Shelton: maybe, maybe I think the best bookstore, I mean, I lived in New York city only for one year.

I could, it was too much, it was too urban for me. too much going on. I think it’s called the, the, is it the strand

Dirk Johnson: or the strand? Yeah, that’s famous. Yeah. Yeah. But the strand is a, a used bookstore and it’s it’s a treasure hunt. Absolutely. So but I actually worked in a bookstore when I came back to to New York after Germany 94 and in the Madison Avenue bookshop.

And it was sort of like a, snobby bookstore in the Upper East Side for, you know, people. They called in and said yeah, I want this book. Have it, we, we deliver the books to their apartments. Yeah. So I met some quite interesting famous people in the bookstore, but no, it, but. Those kind of bookstores have disappeared in New York to there’s just, you know, the Barnes and Nobles and, and a lot of the other is my favorite bookstore was near the Whitney Museum and I forget the name of it.

And it was just was one of those kind of, you know, special bookstores were upstairs was you know, three columns of philosophy books and stuff like that gone. I mean, that’s so there’s very few kind of quality bookstores. Newer with newer titles in New York and so even in urban area, I mean, New York not having something, something comparable to Berlin that says something, you know, and it says that that a New York has become, you know, a city for the rich and city for the major corporations, companies and pushing out smaller places in Berlin can do it.

Berlin can have these quirky places and.

Felicia Shelton: I haven’t been to Berlin. I’ve only been to Kiel and I’ve been to Düsseldorf. I remember this was, my God, maybe I was, I think I was 21. That was a long time ago. But I remember Düsseldorf just being so lovely. Like everywhere I turned, it was just lovely.

And the people just seemed so calm and just going about their day. It was Just, you know, no rushing about

Dirk Johnson: and well, that’s what you asked before about what I want to introduce to the students That’s actually one of the prime things is that they learn that about work life balance that they learn that Germans They they’re highly efficient when they work but when work When that workday is over, it’s over.

They have even a word for it, Feierabend. When it’s Feierabend, don’t, you know, the doors close, I’m out of here. And don’t Let’s say, Feierabend? Feierabend, yeah, Feierabend, just that means the end of the workday, that’s it. No emails, no more talk to me about business, I’m home at work with my family, and that’s it.

Felicia Shelton: I love it. And then they cut it off. They cut it off. They cut it off. I love that. I think the French, it’s now a law. You companies can no longer send emails to their employees after hours. No texts, no emails, nothing. And they are heavily fined. That’s right. If they’re caught doing so, because it’s, you know, you’re, if you’re still receiving text messages and emails from work, you’re still working, but you’re not being paid for that.

So now it’s the law. Well,

Dirk Johnson: it’s also for your mental health. You’re never, you’re never, you’re never unplugged. You’re always constantly. In the back of your mind, feeling guilt that you have to be doing working, and you never can sort of, like, just tune out and feel enjoying the moment. And that’s what I mean with your friends, your family just just hanging out and going to you know, beer garden having the Germans of their coffee and kuchen, you know, their coffee and cake in the afternoon.

And basically, that’s, that those are sacred moments for them. That’s right.

Felicia Shelton: I love, I do remember when we were in Germany I love the desserts, the desserts were so

Dirk Johnson: good. Well, the French are not bad either.

Felicia Shelton: Oh, no, no, no, no, not, not at all.

Dirk Johnson: And the best are the Austrians actually. Oh really? Oh yeah, the Austrians have the best pastries.

Well, I gotta go to Austria

Felicia Shelton: and check it out.

Dirk Johnson: They come with come to you in a cafe with a, with a whole tray, three layers, three rows three trays and, you know, with just these amazing cakes, tortes and everything. It’s just incredible. See,

Felicia Shelton: this is why I got to go back to Europe, just for the desserts alone.

Well, If there’s anything that you would like to add, what would you like to add to, to, to that person, that young person who is thinking maybe study abroad is not for me or, and you know what? And let’s get, I want to ask you something else. Now Hamden Sydney is all male, correct? And but statistically it’s more.

Female females did that study abroad. So why do you think that is?

Dirk Johnson: I think it’s just that males tend to like their The things they do at college that they miss it if they pull themselves out of it, their fraternities, their their sports, whatever it may be, it’s just like they’re more connected, their friends and they just, they just don’t want to give that up necessarily, or it’s too disruptive for them.

Whereas women, I think, are just more willing to they’re interested in going to foreign cities and things like that, exploring that just

Felicia Shelton: being

Dirk Johnson: explorers, I think, be more, yeah, more, maybe more adventurous. I don’t know. But but we’ve had good success. The program has had considering that like, for example, you know 10 students have signed up from Hampden Sydney alone for this program and I have, and most of them are from, from the basic language instruction, I have 19 students in my basic, so more than a third are deciding to go.

On the program. So that just shows you that they’re, they’re open, they’re open to it. And and it, it’s been a hugely successful as not one student who’s ever complained about the program from having Sydney. So, oh,

Felicia Shelton: that’s great. That is wonderful. Well, I thank you so, so much. I, I mean, I really want to talk to you again about the German way of life versus the American way of life, because we were, you know, that, that, you The other conversation, that we had we could have gone on and on and on and on because, you know, I’ve, I’ve experienced the Swedish way of life, the French way of life, even the Korean way of life, you know, from my time in Korea.

But there’s something to be said, I think right now in, in this stage of my life, done the study abroad work abroad and all these things. And now I. Just want to live, you know, there’s there’s work. I’m still, you know, I’m a long way from from we’re not that far away from from retirement But I want that cut off.

I want to you know, you work hard But then when the day is done, I’m done All right, and I don’t want to be contacted and all these things and what else can I do? Besides, you know, be defined by work. And I think that’s another conversation that you and I could have here. Yeah. I’d love that. Yeah. And we talk about, and I would love to learn more about the German way of life and, and German culture.

Yeah. And,

Dirk Johnson: Yeah, there were some things I was going to say in response to some of these questions, but those can be tabled for another conversation. All right.

Felicia Shelton: Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Again, thank you so much, Dirk

Dirk Johnson: Johnson. Thank you. This has been wonderful. And I just, just being able to talk to someone who’s so knowledgeable and interested in, in study abroad is just great.

It’s hard to find

Felicia Shelton: people like that. It’s true. It’s true. I’m glad that we met and we can just go on and on about, I mean. Yeah, we could. Just study abroad. It just, it just, it really and truly changed my entire life. It really, really did. And then it just affects. All of these different, all the other areas of my life to this day.

And I just, you know, thank God that, that, you know, that something like this exists and that a new generation that like the, the students that you’re teaching, who knows how the program is going to affect their, their future. personal and professional lives, but more personal life and the view of themselves.

So thank you for doing that great work. I mean, you, that’s a great service that you are that, that you are providing for the university and for your students. And

Dirk Johnson: well, I, I just feel it’s I that’s what I can give back. I think I’m honored to have had that background and and I want to be able to share it with other people, show them my Germany, show them, what, why it’s special to me.

And so it makes, allows me to, you know, teach another generation, the the beauty of that experience.

Felicia Shelton: That’s wonderful. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in for this amazing episode about study abroad and German way of life and all from a wonderful person, Dirk Johnson, professor of Hampden Sydney.

Thank you so much. This is. in my travels. Have a great time. Have a great day. Ciao.